Welcome to The Design Board, a podcast created by the team at UpSpring that focuses on design, development, and everything in between. We invite innovators in our industry and explore topics that support your growth in every way. The Design Board is a proud member of SURROUND, a podcast network from SANDOW Design Group, featuring the architecture and design industry's premier shows. Check it out at SURROUNDpodcast.com.
Welcome everyone to The Design Board, a podcast by UpSpring that focuses on design, development, and everything in between. We host innovators in our industry and explore topics that support your growth in every way. I'm your host, Susan Fernandez, and today I'm joined by Kori Zwaagstra, Director of Operations at TriCelta Development, a Dallas-based real estate company dedicated to advocating for project stakeholders by mitigating risk and delivering on cost, schedule, and quality. Kori began her career in hospitality sales where she developed a deep appreciation for client service, before taking a hiatus from the professional world to focus on raising her two sons. During this time, she entered pageantry at the suggestion of a friend, going on to be awarded Mrs. Texas International in 2016. Kori used her platform to advocate for important social issues such as mental health and postpartum depression. When her husband Jake wanted to take the leap to found TriCelta Development, he could think of no better business partner than Kori, who has served as a sounding board for decades.Together, the duo leads a diverse and highly specialized team that oversees hospitality, gaming, and mixed-use projects of all scales. Kori credits her time in pageantry with teaching her the value of hard work and her role as a wife and mother in strengthening her problem-solving and management skills. Kori, welcome to the show. Hi, Kori. Can you tell us a little bit about your background? Where did you start out in your career?
Hi, I'm so glad to be here. I actually started my career in hospitality sales as a natural evolution from working as a server in college. I moved to Las Vegas after school, followed my husband to Las Vegas after school. Well, I didn't follow him, I went with him. But I went to Las Vegas and I ended up in a sales role at a fine dining steakhouse, and it was just a good evolution from where I started waiting tables. Obviously hospitality and Las Vegas go hand in hand, so it was a great place to be during that time. And it really helped build a strong foundation in what service looks like, what genuine hospitality and hosting looks like, and has definitely played a role in my career moving forward, especially since we work in a hospitality focus now with TriCelta.
That makes a ton of sense. I don't trust people who never worked in the service industry.
I think that there's a really strong background that you can get in what it takes to care for a guest. I think that love of a guest and thinking of someone not as a customer, but as a guest and a client, it becomes ingrained in you. And I think it's something that everyone should do. And certainly learning how you can go above and beyond in a sales role has helped in this role now in building the company, because some of that outreach, they go hand in hand.
Absolutely. So I have discovered that you are involved or were involved in pageantry, so tell us about that.
Yeah, I feel like it's the little secret that's not really a secret. And gosh, so 10 plus years ago I was heavily involved in the Junior League of Las Vegas, and I actually chaired our large charity gala two years in a row. And part of that fundraising was to have this, we called it Dancing in the Desert. It's when Dancing with the Stars was still new, and we would have local celebrities that would learn how to dance at Arthur Murray, perform, and then that was a way that we were raising funds for the event. Mrs. Nevada happened to be one of our local celebrities, and a friend said, off chance, "Wow, isn't that funny, I didn't know married women could be in pageants. You should do that." And I just like, "Ha ha," filed it away in my head. What a compliment, I could be a beauty queen.And then fast forward after we had our second child, I really struggled with postpartum depression. And one of the ways that my therapist suggested that start working through that was to start moving my body in a healthy way, and then to find a goal, whatever it was, that was something that could help me re-identify myself and separate myself a little bit from Kori the mom to Kori the person. At that point, I wasn't working anymore, and so I really needed something that was my own. And that in the back of my head dare was like, "Oh, I wonder if that's something that I could do." And so I went online, searched it out, did not compete that year. I was totally overwhelmed and terrified because it's something I never did before, but I went on to compete the next year. I was first runner up, and then lit a fire and I said, "Wow, I can prove to my kids that we can do hard things."They were little at the time, three and five, but I focused, I dedicated, and I was able to win the title and go on to the national competition, which it was a blessing. I think that there's a lot of misnomers when people think about pageantry. I wish I would've had the self-confidence and the dedication to compete when I was a Miss in that Miss age group, because the ability to speak and answer questions, the media training, even things like how to deal with difficult situations. Because while you are making friends with these women you're also competing against them, and so I think that relates a lot to life as a parent, life in the workforce, life as building a business. So all of those things, there's a lot of core lessons that you can learn through that.And it was a neat experience for my whole family. We did events together. Gosh, I think I did almost 50 appearances, so I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful for the friends that I made. Some of my closest friends are still my friends from pageantry. And so yeah, it was a neat thing, but it was one of those things where you do it, you experience it, and then you put it to the side. There are some women that go on and compete and compete and compete, but I'm good. It was all-encompassing, so I'm grateful for it, but don't plan on going back.
First, I think it is so admirable and something so many women face, is once you have children, you can lose your own identity. And it is really difficult to pull yourself to take the steps, we're always asked as women to reinvent ourselves. And we're really good at figuring it out, and setting that goal, and getting there and then being able to apply all these lessons and experiences that you had to your business, to TriCelta, and just in your life in general. I also think it's really important for your kids to see you as a full person aside from the mommy role.
Absolutely. I think that I always approach parenting like I'm trying to raise productive adults, and so seeing your parents work through struggle, sacrifice, and then ultimately achieve what they were looking for. That gets modeled in everything they do, whether it's sports as children, in academics. I have a 15-year-old so we're starting to go through what college looks like, and all of those environments are so much more competitive than they were when I was his age. So I think to show that sacrifice and struggle are not for naught is really important. And at that time, I needed a way to have a voice that was my own, and so it allowed that.And I feel like when we become mothers, we become very sacrificial almost, and we're like, "We're doing everything for our family." And sometimes it feels selfish to do something for yourself. And certainly when you think about getting all dressed up and all of the energy that's put into... It can seem really silly, but I can say that I walked across the stage in a bathing suit as a 30-something-year-old woman, and I was never fitter. And I had had two kids, and that's something to be proud of. Sometimes my kids are just mortified, because if you Google our names those photos are around, and they're teenage boys. But I'm proud of the accomplishment that I had, and it made it okay to accomplish things that weren't directly related to parenthood. Because at that time, I was a full-time parent, I wasn't working. And so you need to have something that shows that you still can contribute.
Absolutely, and you used your platform to speak about maternal health. So why do you think these issues are still so important to talk about today?
I think because it's still slightly a taboo subject, there's this idea that when you become a mother and you welcome a child into your home, that everything is going to be so easy, that you're instantly going to be in love. And there's birds flying and twirping, everything is just sunshine and roses. And in reality, it's not that way for a lot of women. And because you think you're supposed to feel one way and you're actually feeling the complete opposite way, there's so much shame involved. So when I would speak as Mrs. Texas or not just as myself, I thought it was a really unique opportunity to not only speak to women, but to speak to men. Because a lot of times, husbands, fathers, brothers, friends, they don't know what to say or what to do. And when someone who you care for is different, the worst thing you can do, "Wow, are you okay?" That feels so judgey.So to look at them in a way that's loving, and say, "I see that things have changed, and I want to make sure that you're being cared for." And I always would like to say, relate it to someone that you know. Like, "Gosh, my friend went through this after her baby was born and she just didn't feel like herself, and she just felt so guilty and down. And she talked to her obstetrician and she was really able to help her." So giving whoever it is the ability to relate in a way that isn't saying, "Gosh, you're really screwing this up, shouldn't you..."So I think that was really the best thing that came out of it, was the ability to say, "This is normal. This doesn't make you a bad mother. It doesn't make you a bad person. These feelings are not real, but they're valid at the same time." And then to give an approach to get help, I think that's where the big disconnect is. Because when women are experiencing this, they don't know what they're supposed to do. And reaching out to ask for help is the biggest ask. So for me, it was talking to my obstetrician, getting linked up with a therapist, getting on medication, which there's a whole other taboo stuff with that, with nursing. Just all these things, there's so much judgment baked into them that women really don't know how to move forward without feeling like they're making a mistake.
100%. And I think that really translates into women in business. I find it interesting that women, if you don't work and you stay at home, there's a certain amount of shame and guilt that comes with that. And then if you do work, then there's shame and guilt. So it's a no-win situation. And navigating your way through that I think is a huge lesson for women in business.
It is. You're not supposed to be too tough, but you're supposed to stand up for yourself. You're supposed to care for your children. I at least grew up with this, "You can have it all, you can do everything," but a lot of times the end of having everything is being tired and feeling worn down, and feeling like you're wearing too many hats and not doing anything to its maximum capacity. So it is sort of an unrealistic expectation, but I think there are ways that we can find balance and do all of the things well.
Absolutely. And I really like that you leaned heavy on a support system, and then said, "I'll do medication, and I don't care what anybody else thinks. I've got to figure this out for myself."
Well, and even just within our family, it seems really scary that you're going to take a prescription and then you could feed it to your child. All of those things just seem really scary, and so you have to navigate them one step at a time. And it's not an easy process to go through, but I think the one thing that people don't consider when they're talking specifically about postpartum depression or postpartum OCD, or all of the affiliated postpartum mental health issues. Because it's anxiety, there's even in more severe forms, psychosis. Suicide in mothers is the second highest cause of death in women ages 27 to 35, and so we don't talk about that enough. But the other thing we don't talk about is that your baby doesn't turn one and then instantly everything is okay, and if you're not getting treatment for these issues when they onset, they can turn into chronic depression.So then you're not talking about something that affected you and you dealt with and moved forward, but then you're talking about something that's going to affect your life, your family's life, your children's life. So it's not like there's a button that the clock dimes at midnight and then all of a sudden everything is fine when your child turns one, it can go on. And so getting treatment and figuring out what that looks like for you. And then setting healthy habits, because it's something that can creep back, is something that women need to consider. That once this is something they've dealt with, it's always going to be in the background. You can't just overcome it and then you're done. You have to care for yourself moving forward forever, which is not a bad thing and it's not a selfish thing.
No, I think a lot of women who are listening to this may be triggering some thoughts of, maybe I'm still dealing with some of this. And that statistic on suicide is absolutely staggering.
Postpartum, that is the second highest reason for death. And so we're expected to be so high achieving, I feel like as women today, and that gets doubled down on. When we're talking about work and we're talking about family, I think that we use a lot of, "Self-care isn't selfish." Actually putting that into action, I think sometimes when you are feeling down or you are feeling overwhelmed, I know personally, I'm either do do do, or I just shut down. And in that shut down time, I think we don't know how to take the next step forward. Whether that's talking to a friend, putting everything away for the day, or if it's something you think is deeply affecting you.Talking to your doctor, reaching out to someone. Therapy is all around in our universe now, I feel like 10, 15 years ago it wasn't as popular or, I don't know if the right word is accessible. If you need to talk to someone, talking to someone is okay, and there's a lot of ways that you can do it, even online. There's a lot of ways that you can do it. And it is freeing to have a conversation with someone who doesn't know you, isn't judging you, and really only wants to help you by giving you some tools that can improve your life.
Absolutely. Athletes have coaches, we need coaches. And that's how I always look at my therapist, is they're helping me be the best person that I can be. Let's pivot to talk about your current role as director of operations at TriCelta. So how did you and Jake know that this was the right time for you to start your own business? I think most people go through this at some point in their life, "Maybe I should start my own business," but how did you know?
So timing is everything. And I think that, just a little aside about Jake, my husband, he's always had an entrepreneurial spirit. He comes from a long line of entrepreneurs. His grandfather moved here from the Netherlands during the Depression, and they actually sent him back to the Netherlands, they're like, "You're taking jobs for Americans, you can't stay. If you can create jobs for Americans, you can come back." So he saved up, came back to the United States, founded a dairy. My father-in-law founded dairies in New Mexico where there wasn't a dairy industry before. And so Jake has always had that in the background. And I would say as long as I've known him, which is 20 plus years, he just wants to do it his way and he wants to feel that pride of ownership. I, however, am thinking about things like health insurance and 401k, and we have two little kids, what is this going to look like?So when we really started talking about leaving working directly for an owner and what that would look like, I think the knowledge that what we had to offer was needed in the market, was valuable, and could help add to what owner's rep services look like. And bring an approach that not only had, for him, 20 years of project management background, but for me, a background in hospitality and what concierge level service really looks like. I think that we could do a good job overweighed the fear part of it. So that's how we got here. I think that timing works out. Certainly if we tried to do this when our children were younger, it would've been almost impossible. There's a lot of travel, there's a lot of late nights and weekends, and I think now that we have teenagers, we have a little bit more flexibility in that. But I think the knowledge that what we had to offer was going to bring value trumps all of the fears that stepping out on your own entails.
So what does that look like, how does that translate into a typical day for you?
So working with your husband is not something that is for every couple, I would say that. I am lucky enough to have been my husband's, and I'm sure the same goes for him, that I've been his workplace sounding board. And I feel like most couples have that, where while I'd never worked in his industry I heard about it for 20 years. So a typical day, I'm usually up first, doing kid stuff, getting them off to school. We always check in, even if he's traveling or if I'm traveling, have that quick cup of coffee, talk about any hot button issues for the day, what the day is going to look like, come up with that POD, that plan of the day. And then because I'm running operations, my day is very varied. Could be a day where we're interviewing for a role, so I'm going through resumes and setting those up, and doing actual candidate interviews. Could be payroll, dealing with any HR issues, anything that falls under that operations umbrella is myself.And then I am making a real effort to be on not the business development manager, but be on the business development side and establishing us networking within Dallas. I'm a member of CREW, so that could be attending a luncheon or a happy hour, something like that. And then about four o'clock, I phase back into the mom life. I'm doing pickup. I can't wait until my 15-year-old starts driving in a few months, so that will make my life a lot easier. Sports practices, that kind of stuff. But Jake and I always check in in the evening and just say, "What needed to happen today that did, what were any things that we should probably talk through?"So there's not really a work day, I feel like right now TriCelta is our third child, and we're helping nurture it and grow it. And so it takes time and attention. Owning your own business is different than working for someone, because I feel like when you work for someone, yes, we get emails all the time. And I don't think that we have a real workday anymore, but when it is yours, it is all the time.
But 100%, absolutely. Given this role, do you think there are still significant hurdles for women in the real estate industry? What challenges do you face that you think are directly related or indirectly related to being female?
So I think that construction and development is definitely still a boys world. I can think of offhand a number of women in construction and development who have been trailblazers, either working in the field and then moving up through the project management ranks in architecture. But I think it's finding a seat at the table, and then it's walking that balance where you are not being, I feel like we use these words for women in business, pushy or overbearing. I think that those are a lot of the negative things, that when you're being assertive and you are using your voice, that can get put on it. Looking back at 20 years ago, I don't see the same challenges. I see women getting involved and being interested in younger women in the STEM kind of things, and how construction, engineering, design, all of those things are related.So I think it's a much more open field for women than it was probably 20 years ago, but I think it's finding your voice in a way that resonates with your peers that shows your value. If you're informed and you're educated, and you have the answers and can bring solutions, you're always going to be valuable, no matter if you're a man or a woman. Being results-oriented I think is the greatest value, whether you're dealing with operational things or we're talking about design and development. If you have solutions and you can get them enacted, that's your value place.
And I think that is really important to remember, especially sometimes we, as women, are solutions-oriented, and have to state the case for our solutions and then just push forward. I'm very hopeful, since our focus as a company has been primarily in the built environment, to see the faces on the calls change. Used to be a minority of women, and now I feel like it's getting to be much more 50/50, which is really only making the work better.
Absolutely, and I think it's becoming more diverse. I feel like in the past it was more segmented. You would maybe have more women on the design side and interiors, and maybe a little bit more of a mix as far as architecture. Engineering was very male-focused, construction development was very male-focused, and I think now it is you are seeing a more of a mix. And I think it's moving the industry forward, because more diverse voices are going to be able to communicate the end user's voice better. We talk a lot about stakeholders at TriCelta, and we try to see the development and their project through not only the stakeholder who's the owner, but the stakeholder who is the operator, the stakeholder who, when we're talking about hospitality projects and hotels, people in the housekeeping team that have to clean the rooms.We try to see the project through not only what is it creating revenue wise, how does the aesthetic look as far as design? Obviously we want a safely built building, but we want it to be something that resonates with the guest and that makes operations easier. So we really try to see it through all of those lenses. And I think if you have a varied development team at the table, you're going to be able to more easily see how that end user and those stakeholders needs and wants are being balanced.
So what are some of the key lessons or takeaways that you have learned from starting this business?
Number one, you have to figure things out yourself. I think that when you are used to, and we talk a lot in construction and development, subject matter experts, when you are not a subject matter expert and you need to figure out everything from payroll to licensing. There's just a million things that starting a business that they don't teach you. I actually have a friend whose husband is a dentist, and she goes, "I wish in dental school they would've had a class that was how to start your dental practice." Because you graduate from school, you work your career and you're an expert in your field, but owning and operating a business is a completely different sphere than doing your actual job.So I think it's being curious, and knowing that things are going to be challenging and frustrating and hard, and you just have to do them anyways even though you don't like doing them. There are certainly some things, even just permitting and all kinds of the things that go into starting a business, or moving to a new office space, and that opens up all these... There's just a million little checklists. So you have to be organized and you have to be willing to say that you don't know and ask for help. And if no one's going to give you the help, you have to figure out how to do it yourself.So you have to really self-start and you have to be really humble in that process, because I couldn't tell you how many things that I didn't know before we started doing this that I know now, because you really do have to figure it out by yourself. There's no one guiding you through the process, certainly.
Yeah, so it sounds like being a self-starter, being resourceful, trial by fire.
You got to have grit.
Yes. So a lot of women have talked about starting businesses, and I think everything that you've said sounds to me exactly like what it takes to run a business. Is there any other thing that you would say is specific to women business leaders? Any other advice you'd give?
I would say that while you're simultaneously figuring it out on your own, you need to find a source of support and you need to be welcoming. So I've noticed, especially in CREW in Dallas, which could be, I think anytime you're walking into a group of women, certainly when a lot of them know, there's a hesitation and an insecurity factor, maybe I'm the only one who feels insecure walking into a new room like that. Once you have to be able to say, like, "Hey, I'm new." And you have to be willing to put the work in to foster those relationships. I think a lot of times, especially when we are new or experiencing a new environment, we tend to pull back. We're waiting for someone to come and talk to us. You need to be the one who's willing to start building your circle, and when you get around a supportive environment, you really need to foster it.I think that some of the best people that we can be as women in business are connectors. Maybe I'm not even in the same industry or I don't have the ability to connect you with what you're looking for, I can probably connect you with someone who can, and that kind of welcoming and open attitude. I just think that if you approach the world with your hands open and willing to give, versus with your hands closed and afraid you're going to lose, that approach just translates so much better.So it's being able to step into an environment and have the bravery to be new and try and connect, and then being of value to those connections. I don't know. Nobody likes the person that's always like, "Hey, do you know so-and-so?" Or, "Can you help me with this?" But they're never willing to reciprocate. And even if we're in an area, maybe not competition isn't the right word, but you still can add value and be helpful to people even in the same place. Maybe that didn't really make sense.
It absolutely does. I think that women are, I always say this kind of, I guess the word is paradox, but the people that we love most in this world are the people who will connect and help you be the very best. But as women, we are natural connectors, natural doers, and then there's also this construct by society that will not help you. You have to behave more like conquer.
Right, it's like a fear of scarcity, a fear that there's not enough bounty for everyone to find success. And I think that if your approach is, "Well, if they get this job, then I'm not going to have it," then you're coming from a place of less. When if you can show what your value is, and you can show how you can do it well and provide whatever the end result, for us, it's a happy client and a beautiful development, and happy guests enjoying that space. All of those things can be true at the same time, I think. And so yeah, there's nothing that's going to hurt you by taking five minutes out by shooting off an email or making an introduction. It empowers us all.
100%. Is there anything, Kori, that I haven't asked you that you want to talk about?
No, I don't think so. That we're not just only talking about a design-build approach, I feel like I get to talk about a design-build approach a lot, so I'm glad we're not talking about that.
Yeah, you've been fantastic. So many women just struggle with all of this, and what I see since I work with a lot of women who are in their early 20s, everything's changed and nothing's changed. To be a woman, there's so many conflicts, it's so hard to find your footing.
It's difficult. And I feel like we are, or at least maybe we were raised, my kids love to say, "Well, you were born in the 70s." I was born in 1979, but I feel like we were raised to think that we could do everything and that we had to consistently always be getting better. So I feel like for younger women, it's like graduating, getting the right internship, and then they also need to find your life partner and get married. And then you need to start having children, but you need to be getting promoted at work. It's like, and then you're having this, and then you're having that, and then you get to 35, 40 and you're like, "Wait, I'm not having any more kids. I'm at a happy place in my career. I don't need total world domination. Is something wrong with me that I'm content?"I feel like we're just always supposed to get better and better, and self-improvement is fantastic, but it also can get to this point where you're just exhausted and you feel like you're never going to be good enough. And doing a great job at your work, showing up for your clients, showing up for your family, being a good friend, that should be enough. And it's unfortunate to see that maybe it's not ever going to be that way.
I agree. Well, thank you so much. It's been fantastic speaking with you.
Absolutely, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for your time today.
Thank you so much for listening in with us today. We hope you leave inspired by the ideas in today's episode. For more, follow UpSpring on LinkedIn and Instagram, and don't forget to check out the amazing lineup of shows brought to you by the SURROUND Podcast Network at SURROUNDPodcast.com.
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