Avinash Rajagopal is the editor-in-chief of Metropolis magazine. He is an expert on product and interior design in the digital age, as a historian of contemporary design as well as a frequent speaker at key industry events. He is the author of Hacking Design (Cooper Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum, 2013). and has contributed to numerous volumes on architecture and design, including Adhocracy (Istanbul Design Biennial, 2012), Making Africa (Vitra Design Museum, 2015) and Atlas of Furniture Design (Vitra Design Museum, forthcoming). He has lectured on design history and writing at the School of Visual Arts, New York; the University of Texas at Austin; and the National Institute of Design, India.
Key Moments and Timestamps
00:00–01:18 — Why most stories fail before they’re even told
01:19–02:55 — From industrial design to design criticism: Avi’s editorial lens
02:56–04:36 — Rethinking “criticism” as responsibility, not opinion
04:37–06:06 — Judgment, discernment, and why media shapes industry standards
06:07–07:38 — How history informs what gets covered—and what gets ignored
07:52–09:39 — What Metropolis actually looks for when choosing stories
09:40–10:57 — Sustainability in practice: where values meet real constraints
10:58–12:40 — Greenwashing, trade-offs, and the complexity behind “better” materials
12:41–14:14 — Why good intentions only move a fraction of the market
14:15–15:48 — The business case for sustainability (and why it still falls short)
15:49–18:20 — How media guides the industry: showing what’s possible vs. realistic
19:55–21:36 — What separates pitches that land from those that get ignored
21:37–22:52 — Timing, context, and why most outreach fails editors
22:53–25:59 — The “Metropolis difference” and telling deeper, multi-layered stories
26:17–27:56 — Why design journalism is more consequential than most realize
27:56–End — Attention is earned through perspective, not promotion
Tiffany Rafii:
[00:00:00] What makes a story rise above the noise? In an industry that moves as fast as ours, it rarely starts with a headline. It starts with a point of view, a clear sense of what matters, why it matters, and who needs to hear it now.
Thousands of pitches cross an editor’s desk each year, but only a fraction shape the conversations that move our industry forward. The ones that do are rooted in bold ideas, cultural awareness, and a deep understanding of the future we're all trying to build.
This is a conversation about how stories move markets, what helps a pitch stand out in a landscape shaped by urgency and change, and the role media plays in elevating sustainability, equity, and innovation when the stakes have never been higher.
[00:00:43]Welcome to Play With Matches, the podcast igniting bold ideas and redefining what's possible in architecture, design, engineering, and construction. I'm your host, Tiffany Rafii, CEO of UpSpring. Each episode I'll talk with the disruptors sparking change at the intersection of creativity and business.
Today we're joined by Avi Rajagopal, editor-in-chief of Metropolis, whose perspective reveals what it takes to earn attention, influence, and relevance in the built environment.
Let's start at the beginning of Avi's journey.
Avi Rajagopal:
[00:01:19] I studied industrial design. My education was steeped in the design world, but I became very interested in the culture around design as well. Not just looking at every individual piece of work, but looking at broad arcs in design. I have some training as a design historian as well, and then that line of thinking drew me to a Master's in Design Criticism at the School of Visual Arts in New York.
So, I come from that perspective that any creative activity requires outside cultural scaffolding: people who are interested in it; people who care about the means and the goals; people who are keeping an eye on the fact that we are spending our resources and our efforts in the directions that maybe the society and the world needs us to. So that's my beginning coming in at it through the world of criticism.
Tiffany Rafii:
That foundation shaped how Avi thinks about criticism, not as commentary, but as responsibility. Criticism becomes a tool for examining who design serves and what the built environment asks of all of us.
Avi Rajagopal:
I think when we hear the word criticism, we typically think of, like, a review, right? Or even better, the food critic in Ratatouille, or this person who sits in their armchair, for some reason is considered an expert in a topic, and through the power of his words can demolish careers and stuff like that. The truth of the matter is that within design, especially in today's media landscape, criticism works in a very different way.
[00:02:55] And when we say criticism, what I understand that to be is critical thinking about the processes, the profession, the people, basically the entire ecosystem of the built environment. And so, when we apply critical thinking tools to design, then we start to ask some very basic questions about design.
And I think if you look at Metropolis coverage, the way it shows up is not necessarily in any individual article—although many of our articles have very strong points of view, and that's one of the things we're known for—but it shows up also in the broad arc of our coverage. What are the things we choose to cover? What are the questions we choose to ask? What are the kinds of things that we want to promote using our platforms? What are the ways in which we engage with our community?
Because Metropolis is not just about the stories we publish, it's also about the discussions and the events we hold with the broader profession. We hold conferences. I do so many round tables. Also, we are very unique in the media landscape in that, as a publication, we've also taken on the role of sometimes creating resources. We created the first resource for interior designers to look at carbon emissions in their work. And so that's a very different thing for a media platform to take on, but it felt necessary to us because it felt like we were uniquely positioned.
We could bring the community together as a neutral entity. And that too, in its own way, is a kind of criticism. It's applying critical thinking to the professional landscape as we understand it, and then supplying what we think is missing. Supplying understanding, guidance, analysis, but also highlighting work that we think represents what the future of the built environment should be.
[00:04:37] We use judgment and discernment every single day in our work at Metropolis, we make our own kind of assessment of what is worth covering, what is not worth covering, how much we should cover, how we should cover it, what the angle on the story should be. How should the discussions be framed? Who shows up for the discussions?
All of these things are judgments. I'm not scared of the word judgment. What I would caution is that if we didn't have discernment and judgment around our work, we would never strive for excellence. We would never strive for innovation. All those things are really important. It keeps us on the path to trying to do more, trying to do better as a profession.
[00:05:12] We're a big community of architects, designers, contractors, builders, manufacturers, developers, and we all hold each other accountable in this space. And more than anything else, we're accountable to society and to the planet in terms of what we choose to build, how we build it. This is as true of a really delightful luxury residential experience as it is of a super affordable, low income housing project.
There's no judgment, I would say, a priority of what kind of project is worth building. Where there is judgment is have we done justice to this work given whatever frameworks that we're interested in at the moment?
Tiffany Rafii:
[00:05:51] That sense of responsibility doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is informed by history, by patterns that repeat and lessons our industry is still learning. For Avi, looking critically at design today means first understanding how we arrived here in the first place.
Avi Rajagopal:
[00:06:07] Luckily, in a position of leadership, I get to, in collaboration with a lot of team members, chart the path of what our platform stands for, what we cover, what we do day in and day out. And history flows into that. I think a lot about what has been done.
For example, when I talk about sustainability, I often point out that something really complex happened in the wake of World War II. Yes, we like to go back all the way to the Industrial Revolution, but really, in the period between the two World Wars, and after World War II, we shifted our focus within the built environment in a few different ways. Some of them, from our vantage point today, we would consider positive. Some of them we would consider negative. We really started to strive for simplification and mass production of buildings and objects which, on the one hand, is great. It brought access to beautiful spaces to a lot of people maybe who didn't have access before.
On the other hand, we are now realizing that in that quest for efficiency, we've let in materials that maybe we shouldn't have. We've lost some skills and some knowledge that we shouldn't have. We've also not adequately, I think, thought about the impact of the built environment on communities. We still struggle actually to wrap our heads around that.
[00:07:23] I think a historical perspective helps that as well. And so again, when it comes to saying, okay, here are the programs that Metropolis is going to invest our time and resources in this year, or here are the stories we're going to do, here are the themes of our issues, all of that comes into play.
Tiffany Rafii:
With that perspective in mind, the question becomes what it looks like in practice. For Avi and his team at Metropolis, it shows up in the projects they choose to spotlight, the ideas they lean into, and the voices they amplify.
Avi Rajagopal:
[00:07:52] It starts in an unusual place actually. It starts from being really connected to the community of architects and designers, and people in the built environment. So much of what I do comes from conversations I have with people at events, at conferences, things like that. Just dinners, whatever.
I'm absorbing, and my team—all of them—are absorbing from the world itself. What is going on right now? What are people excited about? What kind of work are people doing? We highlight people who are already pushing the conversation forward.
We don't design anything ourselves, so we have to find those people who have ideas that I think are remarkable and bring them to the fore. Whether it's a small architecture firm in Mexico City that we meet at the Biennale and then they end up with a big feature in Metropolis, or if it's a little hint of a something that comes to us in a press release, and that we keep at the back of our minds for two years or three years till the project comes to completion. That's the biggest influencer of telling us what to cover and how to cover it.
But that is situated within purpose-driven sense of what the built environment should look like. And I know people credit Metropolis for advocacy around sustainability. We're very proud of that legacy, but I would say it's not any one theme around sustainability that we care about. It's really the spirit and the philosophy behind that idea.
Once we have that true north that we believe in architecture that doesn't harm, that does good in the world, and once you've taken that as your tenant, you think, okay, a future for the built environment should be a future where everybody can thrive and nobody's thriving at the cost of others.
It gives you a sort of compass. You are interested naturally in certain types of projects and not in other types of projects.
Tiffany Rafii:
[00:09:40] Purpose, though, is only meaningful if it can survive the realities of how the industry actually works. When values meet budgets, materials, and market forces, sustainability becomes less about slogans and more about discernment, trade-offs, and tough decisions.
Avi Rajagopal:
First of all, I think, in the sustainability world, there's a whole lot of expertise. A lot of people have spent a lot of time thinking about these questions: about what is actually necessary and what is actually good when it comes to the built environments. The other thing is that sustainability is not a zero-sum game.
[00:10:12] So, on the one level we stand with organizations that say, you know what? We need to wean ourselves away from plastics in certain applications in the built environment. We can't be the second largest consumer of fossil fuels through our use of plastics as an industry. And so there are some things that we hold, but at the same time, we can't wave a wand and do away with plastics in the built environment today. It would hurt people. So these are very tricky situations to navigate.
But the truth of the matter is that what we need to build is our own discernment. This comes back to that question about judgment and discernment, right? We build that discernment based on expertise, yes, but also we have to form informed points of view. There's no getting away from that.
I'll come at it from another angle, which is that marketers make exaggerated claims about lots of things all the time. We often are presented with products that the press release tells us is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's the most innovative, the most creative, they got the best designer to work on it. We've learned to read that language and understand the spirit in which it's offered, and we navigate that together. It's the same thing with sustainability. Anytime somebody finds a new solution, they're gonna come and tell you this is the greatest solution in the world. And for the problem that they are looking to solve, it might be the greatest solution in the world. There's also a lot of problems to solve. There's lots of goals that one can have in sustainability.
I'll give you a somewhat sensitive example. Over the last two or three years, we've had lots of different solutions come to the market around vinyl or PVC. We have, on the one hand, a very vocal sustainability leadership that says we should completely do away with PVC in the built environment. On the other hand, we have manufacturers who are trying to develop what they think of as more responsible versions of PVC, and often when we promote one of those more responsible versions, even Metropolis sometimes is accused of greenwashing.
[00:12:03] While I can hold true that we should extricate ourselves from harmful plastic in the built environment, the truth of the matter is millions of square feet of that material are continuing to be specified, and specified by designers who are on the teams of the people who tell us we shouldn't be specifying it.
For those who are able to build a project that's completely PVC free, you should do it. Get us more examples of that. Show us that it's possible, and then we can get more and more people on that path. But in the meantime, when we have people who don't have a choice on projects, and still want to make sure they're not doing as much harm as they would be specifying a conventional PVC product, we have to give them options.
Tiffany Rafii:
[00:12:41] What emerges is a picture of sustainability shaped by real projects. Where intention meets constraint, and there are no absolute answers waiting on the other side.
Avi Rajagopal:
We take very nuanced stances around this topic. And as long as we are clear that our decisions and our pathways to what we cover, and what we promote, are rooted in knowledge and in a point of view that is reasoned and informed—and we're okay being wrong once in a while—and I think we all have to be okay with that.
[00:13:13] Yes, of course greenwashing is a problem—I'm not saying it isn't—but the solution is going to come from a more informed media, a more informed public, a more informed consumer base or customer base for whatever product that is. And so that's where we have to use our judgment and discernment as media, as specifiers, as experts, but also as laypeople.And there's no getting around that.
Currently, I would say good intentions has the potential to move about a fifth of the market. We know that from a few different sources. One is that AIA, in their last firm survey from 2024, found that for commercial projects, for all reporting firms, about a fifth of their project we're tracking towards some kind of sustainability or wellness goal.
[00:14:00] On the other hand, when ThinkLab—which is a sister company of Metropolis’ and as a research company—when they survey architects and designers, about 20% of designers say that sustainability is among their top three criteria when looking for products. When I say top three factors, the other factors in the mix are price, durability, aesthetics.
If you are making sustainable carpet, it might happen that in that 20% of projects, people are not choosing the carpet to be sustainable; they're putting their money somewhere else. And so to you it looks like I'm not getting anything out of this.
The problem is pinning it down to intentions. We know that intentions got us this far. If you look at the number of specifiers who make sustainability their number one goal, that's 10% or less. But if you ask designers, how many of you think that it’s designers’ responsibility to present more sustainable options to your clients? 73% of designers agree that it's their responsibility. As I said, intentions are only going to get us so far.
Ultimately, what has to happen is that we have to continue to find ways to make the case for more sustainable products and options. For manufacturing companies, that means that producing more sustainable options, we need to find good business reasons to do that. Then, we need to find good business reasons for clients to choose those options over the others that are available in the marketplace.
[00:15:15] And when I say clients, end users, actual decision makers.
There is a big shift happening within the world of sustainability away from, we're gonna do this because our customers care. We're gonna do this because the government tells us to do it. I think a lot more sustainable leaders are asking, what can we do that would actually affect the goals of our businesses themselves?
That's why reusing furniture or recycling materials is slowly gaining traction. We're hearing more and more projects where people are reusing at least some portion of the furniture in the space that they've given, or that they have in warehouse or in stock, or they're using a reuse platform like ReSeat.
[00:15:49]The reason they're doing that is because that's a direct bottom line decision. You save money on furniture and you're doing good at the same time. It's those kinds of win-wins that are going to really gain traction, and we need to be looking out for more and more of those.
Of course, if everything were true, and if pigs had wings and horses could fly, yeah, we would always choose the most sustainable option. But the truth of the matter is that it's hard work. We have to do that work every day. We have to show up every day and do a little bit at a time, and that's how it's gonna take.
For manufacturers who are not seeing the ROI on their sustainability, I think they have to ask themselves, are they really being creative about how they market product and how they message it on their sustainable products?
[00:16:26] Give you an example. We don't really segment sustainability marketing. We consider sustainability as a market segment, which is so weird. Healthcare specifier, a K through 12 specifier, and a workplace specifier think is sustainable are very different things. So what is our sophistication in terms of market segmentation and actually understanding the market when we're doing sustainability marketing?
So this is the provocation I would throw out there. Before we say, eh, we're not getting back enough. We should be like, are we actually chasing our product development investment and business operation investment with the kind of manufacturing know-how expertise, investment, and smart chops that we really should be bringing to the table here?
But that, of course, depends on whether you invested in sustainable products because you thought it would fly off the shelf, or because you thought that it would make an actual difference to your business. Now that's a question that’s between you and your CFO and your product development team.
If you were to take any metric aesthetics or price or, and you said, how many of you put this number one? I would say maybe price would be the biggest, but that's because project managers are tasked, fundamentally, with managing budgets on a project. They're given a very clear priority, and they have to follow that priority, and that priority trickles down. In the world we're in, to expect that there would be more of a movement there is, we have to work for it.
[00:17:40] We have to make sure that the specifier who might care about the ethics of specifying good product and sustainable product, the client who cares about budget but also cares about not putting poison out in the world, and that project manager, who will lose their job if they don't meet the project budget, are all satisfied by that product that we're offering to them.
That's the challenge. That's what we need to make happen. It's not about we’ll specify a more sustainable product, even though it costs a little bit more. You have to now justify that investment in that product. That's the reality of how products move in this market, and we have to acknowledge that reality and work around it.
Tiffany Rafii:
[00:18:21] Sitting with that reality clarifies the role journalism plays. When the work’s this complex, design media isn't here to simplify the story but to guide it, showing what's possible, what's practical, and what progress can look like.
Avi Rajagopal:
We love showing people what is possible, and we try to do that on projects on all kinds of budgets for all kinds of communities and purposes and programs. And we try to maintain that diversity and mix because we take that responsibility seriously.We want to show people how they can design the future. That's our tagline. So that's one thing is to show people what's possible.
The second thing is to point out concerns or topics to people that maybe they haven't thought about or they haven't considered. So for instance, when we, in 2003, for the first time published the Carbon Emissions of the Built Environment, or in 2020, for the first time, showed the cumulative carbon emissions of interior innovation. So we often take that responsibility as well.
The last piece I would say is giving people permission to make incremental improvement and to learn. We don't only showcase projects that are the absolute pinnacle of whatever framework of sustainability you want to take. If I could only publish full Living Building Challenge Certified projects, I would not be able to put a magazine out. We have to also show people what is realistic and pragmatic, and I think that's part of the responsibility as well. So here's what people have achieved given absolutely the right clients, right brief, right location, right budget. Here's things you can achieve no matter what client, what budget, all of that. And then here are some things you should be thinking about today so that you're prepared for the challenges.
Tiffany Rafii:
[00:19:55] But how do ideas actually make their way into a magazine like Metropolis? And what separates pitches that earn attention from the many that never quite land?
Avi Rajagopal:
I hate to say something like when you see it, you know it. It's true. The seeing it and the knowing it. The knowing it depends on having all that contextual information and knowledge and so on that my team and I cultivate over time. We're also looking for the new in the sense that people are approaching challenges maybe in new and more creative ways, in different ways than have been done before. So that usually makes a difference as well.
We have a pretty great process of filtration. I trust the editors on my team to apply their own filters and their own judgment as well. If I didn't do that, if I had to individually look through all the-more than thousands of pitches that we receive at Metropolis every year, I think my job would be humanly impossible.
[00:20:46] I always tell my editors, don't bring me something that you are not interested in the first place. If it doesn't pique your interest, why would I be looking at it? You think it's good enough?
The things that stand out are is the person pitching to us clear about some of the details that would matter to us? When is the project gonna be completed? When is photography gonna be completed? Are the clients and the stakeholders available for interviews, and so on? Do we have their approval to pursue publication?
If it's product, it's when is the product gonna come out? When are you doing your final photo shoots? When is it gonna be available on the market? When are you going to have press details and things like that? So all of those things make a difference.
The other part of it is does it represent something new and creative in its segment? And that is very contextual. So what is innovative in wallcovering is not the same thing as what is innovative in urban planning.
[00:21:37] At the end of the day, we're okay with making subjective decisions. That's what gives Metropolis its voice and point of view, is like we're interested in some things and just not interested in other things. And this is why we need a rich and vibrant media landscape. Every story, if it's worthwhile, we'll find the right outlet for it. And so not everything needs to be published in Metropolis, and neither are we looking to be clones of every other publication and platform out there.
The people who are successful in getting stories into Metropolis, there's a few things. One is of course, that they have an understanding of what is important about the work that they're presenting to us, and they have a point of view on that.
[00:22:18] If it's a product, it's telling us this is the material, or this is the designer, or it fulfills this new need. Simple. That's 101, making sure that you're positioning it right.
The second thing is, I think, they understand timelines and scale. I've said for years now, if you come to us six months before the issue is going to print, you might get a 12-page story. You come to us two weeks before you're releasing it to every media outlet, you might get a 600 word web article. And if you come to us the day before you're lifting your embargo, we're gonna be like, this is not enough time for Metropolis. We're sorry. That's just how it works.
[00:22:52] As a media platform at Metropolis, we take a very deliberate curatorial effort. It doesn't mean that we can't be fast when we need to. At the same time, we invest in our storytelling. We invest in how we select stories and how we platform them. People are like, we're coming to you because we think it would be so perfect for Metropolis. We're doing this thing. It's gonna open in three days. And I'm like, what am I gonna do with that? I'm sorry. If it's that important and you're so focused on Metropolis, why didn't you just drop me a line two months ago and say, hey, I have something in the works. I can't give you all the details, but this is why I think it's exciting and build that. People are constrained, obviously, by their own legal and regulatory mechanisms, and I understand that, but you know, that's going to affect press.
[00:23:35] With Metropolis, it's a little more challenging, and not because of any artificial gatekeeping we're doing. We're not too proud or too snobbish to jump on a story or anything like that. It's just we curate our feed and our content coverage so carefully that it takes us a minute to-to say, okay, yes, we should publish this. This is who we should assign it to. This is the kind of story we should do. Nobody's contextualizing it or providing the detail that Metropolis does, and I'm very proud of that.
Tiffany Rafii:
Those choices around timing, context, and point of view, shape the kind of stories Metropolis is able to tell. One project in particular, captures the depth and intention behind that editorial approach: the cover story for the Winter 2025 issue.
Avi Rajagopal:
[00:24:19] The core of the story is a new building by Studio Gang for Harvard University. It's called the David Rubenstein Treehouse. It's a mass timber building. It's a conference center—gathering center for the project, for the campus—and you'll see a few online outlets, including Metropolis, have already published some stories on that.
The week that it opened, we published a Q&A with the Jeanne Gang on the project as a preview of the story. But what's gonna appear in print is a) the fact that project is actually one part of a big master plan by Harvard for something called the Enterprise Research Campus.
The project in itself, yes, it's a master timber building, super sustainable. It has a lot of firsts for Harvard, including a new way that they're vetting materials and products for healthy buildings. But this project is actually Harvard's first foray into commercial real estate development with Tishman Speyer as a partner. And then they assembled this all-star team led by Studio Gang and Henning Larsen, but a whole bunch of firms were involved. And we worked very closely with Harvard and all the teams to be able to tell that larger contextual story as to why this building exists. So, the first layer is the building and its sustainability detailing. The second layer is the-is the urban development.
So, you see it's a sustainability story, it's a real estate story, it's a business story, it's an urbanism story. And that story that we're telling about the Enterprise Research Campus. None of the outlets that published the story about this building devoted maybe more than a paragraph or two to that campus. Our main story is about the campus, and then we come to the building. That's the Metropolis difference.
Tiffany Rafii:
[00:25:59] The story of the David Rubenstein Treehouse offers a clear picture of what thoughtful design journalism can do at its very best. But from there, the conversation naturally turns outward, toward the bigger question of what the future of design journalism demands in a world where the built environment touches every part of our lives.
Avi Rajagopal:
[00:26:17] What we need is an ecosystem where many forms of journalism thrive, and not all of them have to be the kind of journalism that Metropolis espouses.
It's the thriving of diverse forms of storytelling that is going to keep the public engaged with coverage of the built environment. Buildings are the most complex things we make as human beings, okay? Cities are the engines of our economy. They're where most of our resources as humankind currently goes to.
[00:26:49] If we as a living being on this planet have a right to a certain amount of this planet's resources and a purpose within that, we should be aware. And we should have a stake in that. That's what I believe from Metropolis’ point of view. And it means that anything that helps everybody be more aware of how this very complex, but very consequential industry operates, is really vital and critical.
And so whether you are an influencer making, you know, 60 second videos about design trends on TikTok, or you are the Wall Street Journal reporting on real estate investment, or your Metropolis talking about the professional concerns of architects and interior designers. All of us have a role to play in this landscape.
[00:27:35] That's the-what we should recognize about design journalism. It's not this fun lifestyle thing. It's about one of the most consequential activities of humankind.
And there are lots of fun ways of talking about this consequential thing, and we should have all those beautiful, fun, creative ways as well, alongside the informative and in-depth ways.
[00:27:56] Everything. We need all of it. If any one of those pieces withers and dies, it would be a loss to all of us because it means that we have one less way of understanding this thing that all our lives are staked in. And that's why I think design journalism should be as diverse and rich as possible, because we need every eye, every lens, every perspective, every way of enjoying and celebrating and examining this thing we call the built environment.
Tiffany Rafii:
[00:28:26] What this conversation makes clear is that meaningful coverage doesn't begin with a pitch. It begins with perspective, with knowing what your work stands for, why it matters, and how it fits into the larger cultural context shaping the built environment.
Avi reminds us that editors aren't simply gatekeepers of attention. There's stewards of meaning, navigating complexity, trade-offs, and responsibility in an industry that shapes how we live, work, and move through the world.
For brands, firms, and leaders in our industry, earning that attention isn't about chasing headlines, but about doing the work to understand your role and show up with intention. The stories that endure aren't just seen, they're understood, and in an industry as consequential as ours, that understanding is where real influence begins.
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Play With Matches. We hope this conversation inspires you to push a little further, imagine a little bigger, and to keep igniting the ideas that move our industry forward.
To hear more conversations like this one, follow play with matches wherever you get your podcast.
Play With Matches is part of the SURROUND Podcast Network.
You can find show notes and full transcripts at surroundpodcasts.com. This show is produced by UpSpring.
A huge thank you to our guests, our audio editing team Make a Scene Productions, and to the UpSpring who helped make this episode possible: Brittany Lloyd, Eleanor Ling, and Marcus McDermott.
Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.
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